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hi everyone welcome to podcast ufo i'm

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martin willis your host with episode

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number eight

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you can follow us on twitter at

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twitter.com

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podcast ufo you can listen to us through

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stitcher on your smartphone we have a

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free app available on our website you

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can listen to us on itunes and please

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feel free to leave us a review today's

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guest is mac maloney he's an author in

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newburyport massachusetts and he wrote a

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wonderful book titled ufos in wartime

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it's a great interview and enjoy the

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hi everyone i'm in newburyport

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massachusetts with mac maloney how you

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doing mac i'm doing very good yes so

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thanks for joining me and this is

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actually my first live one-on-one

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recording that's not on skype or on the

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phone

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and uh in the beautiful town of

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newburyport how long have you lived here

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well i um i lived here for about 10

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years as a youth and then moved to

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upstate new york and then we've been

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back here probably about 15 years now

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yeah my father grew up here though so a

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lot of our family is here yeah nice

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historic town now

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i love history and you know it's very

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seldom that history really gets too much

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involved in the ufo phenomenon but uh

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your book let's talk about your latest

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book it's called ufos and wartime

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and uh i appreciate you sending that to

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me it's a great book it was a great read

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i really uh enjoyed it a lot so let's uh

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let's talk what got you involved and

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you've written what 40 books or so in

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the past just about 40 books yeah and

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what uh what made you decide to write

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this book on ufos

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well i was at lunch with my editor about

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three years ago and we were just

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spitballing ideas as they say and um

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i had mentioned to him that when i was

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growing up i used to read a lot of ufo

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books and my father was a world war ii

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veteran and he was really big into

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military history so we had a lot of

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military history books around the house

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too and i used to read them too so

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somewhere along the lines these two

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things just kind of crossed paths

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and i

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remember thinking quite a while ago that

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it seems like ufos show up more during

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war time than when we're not i want

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just mentioned it to the editor and he

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said you know that might make an

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interesting book but it would have been

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a non-fiction book would you be

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interested in doing that so you know

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just thought about it for a while and

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finally said yes

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and that was about three years ago and

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um you know

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the book came out um last december

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i i figured you must have had to do a

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lot of research to make something like

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this work

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so what was involved and all the

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research you did for that it was a lot

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of research it was more research than i

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ever thought really it would be

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um

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i had a lot of ufo books around the

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house anyway

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and so then i the first thing i did as

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soon as i knew we were going to do the

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book was i went out and i bought every

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ufo book that i could get my hands on

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that would i thought would relate to the

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subject

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and i just went through those went

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through my old books

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and then i was able to um actually talk

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to um

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air force pilots and navy pilots and

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airline pilots really well most of them

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are ex-military anyway because the books

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i've written before this they're all

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military novels so i i know some people

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in those areas

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and then i was also um able to talk to

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people who work for

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us intelligence agencies who i also know

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and then i just kind of put it all

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together and

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with the help of a couple other ufo

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uh authors um jerry clark being one of

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them very famous ufo writer and keith

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chester who's another ufo writer and

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just kind of put all that together and

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uh you know started uh

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banging it out you know and then um just

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uh lots of editing and so on and and um

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all in all it took about two and a half

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years wow wow that's a long time did you

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get the old writer's block like you

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normally do in writing no no writer's

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block is is a fallacy there's no such

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thing as right as well

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the best if you have risen block the

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best prevention for brightest block is

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to have a contract and have an editor on

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the phone saying where's the book

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the writers block those away immediately

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yeah if you get it in the first place

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yeah yeah that's funny now i know you

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started out way back was it roman times

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were you actually the shield thing i

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remember you talking about i'm actually

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um 300 bc with um alexander the great

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alex into the ground

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he was

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conquering the known world at the time

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and he was somewhere in east persia and

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had a huge army

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with lots of

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ground forces but also elephants war

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elephants and a lot of cavalry

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and he was about to afford this

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strategic river when these five

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flying shields showed up and started

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buzzing uh his troops and it scared the

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elephants and the horses to the point

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where they would not cross the river

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so that was like that's the first story

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in the book that's the one of the few

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stories that we came across that

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actually um has ufos interfering with

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some kind of a military campaign

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usually they're just kind of uh

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observing

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but um yeah that was 300 bc and then 380

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constantine the first was about to um

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do battle with one of his rivals right

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outside rome

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and whoever won the battle was going to

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be the next emperor of rome

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and the day before the battle

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he saw a ufo

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that was in the shape of a cross

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and his

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seers that traveled with his army told

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him that this was a sign

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that if his troops painted crucifixes on

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their shields that they would win the

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battle even though they were underdogs

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so he ordered all his troops to do that

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and the next day

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they had the battle and he won

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and he became

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the emperor of rome one of the first

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things he did was make christianity the

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official religion of rome

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and um so from that point christianity

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just went all over the world so i know

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it sounds

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um crazy but um there's a point

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you could make a point that christianity

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flourished because of a ufo sighting wow

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wow now where did you find the

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documentation for

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these two last stories you just said

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i don't know somewhere in the pile of

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books i have in my room or somewhere on

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the internet i should have mentioned

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that too is that you know a lot of

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research are

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what is good about the internet is that

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you can

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google in whatever is on your mind

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and you'll get something and that's

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something will lead you to a book

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you know to a podcast to a radio show or

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something like that um i think that um

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we got those from

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a uh the book

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of a broadcaster from years ago his name

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was uh i think his name was jack edwards

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and he was uh kind of like he was an

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all-night radio guy

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and he also wrote books on ufos and i

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believe that that's where the the first

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source of those two stories came from

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and then um you get into the scare ships

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and uh i think that was quite a

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quite a name for them

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i think somewhere i

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read that you thought there's a

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possibility of time travel

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right um

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you know i always used to think i think

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the

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a lot of people just assumed that ufos

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are the little green men from mars

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theory

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but the more i

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researched it the more i kind of looked

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into it the more this idea that they

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might not be ets at all that they might

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be time travelers just that would make

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more sense

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there's a ufo right named jack vale who

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has championed this idea and certainly

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not the first one to come up with it but

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it just seems like

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um many times especially in war time

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when ufos show up in battle

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they're just observing

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um you know these cases where

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british bombers would be over a city at

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night being shot at by anti-aircraft

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fire being shot at by german knight

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fighters and

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in the midst of really horrendous battle

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and a ufo would be flying 100 feet off

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their wing

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and i just kept thinking why would they

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do that you know if you have such a

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technology that you can

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build and fly these incredible

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machines that people were seeing

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why would you why wouldn't you look at

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something like this from a distance why

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would you want to be right there and it

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just occurred to me you know what that

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that maybe these are

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time travelers from our own future

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coming back just simply watching how

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history was being made mm-hmm yeah i

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mean that's that's a a pretty good

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theory

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the thing the other side of that that i

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think may conflict with that a little

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bit is that there's a lot of you know

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mundane days where people see

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a ufo here and there and you know maybe

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it's a little of both i mean it's and

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then there's the talk about

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interdimensional and

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and all that and it's uh you know we the

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bottom line is we just don't know we

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don't know i mean that's that's the um

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we start the book off with that phrase

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that um someone came up with years ago

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that makes a lot of sense and what it is

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is ufos exist we just don't know what

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they are yet yeah um the the story i

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always kind of use as far as um

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you know if they're from another

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dimension or another uh time as opposed

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to outer spaces

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uh the example of a safari um if if you

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want a safari tomorrow

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what

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would you would get on a plane you would

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go

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a long way away to africa they would put

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you on a a bus or a truck or something

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and

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pictures of the lions eating the

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antelopes and so on and so forth

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now the animals see you

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um but they can't comprehend you know

279
00:10:00,790 --> 00:09:58,880
what a what a tourist is what a truck is

280
00:10:01,829 --> 00:10:00,800
what a camera so they they they're aware

281
00:10:03,430 --> 00:10:01,839
of you but they don't know what you are

282
00:10:04,470 --> 00:10:03,440
so they just go on with their daily

283
00:10:05,990 --> 00:10:04,480
lives

284
00:10:08,550 --> 00:10:06,000
well it would almost be the same thing

285
00:10:10,310 --> 00:10:08,560
with ufos i mean we know they're here we

286
00:10:11,269 --> 00:10:10,320
see them all the time

287
00:10:13,829 --> 00:10:11,279
um

288
00:10:15,350 --> 00:10:13,839
but maybe just like an animal in the

289
00:10:17,670 --> 00:10:15,360
serengeti can't comprehend what a

290
00:10:19,269 --> 00:10:17,680
tourist is we can't comprehend what a

291
00:10:20,870 --> 00:10:19,279
ufo is

292
00:10:22,630 --> 00:10:20,880
um and then if you take that one step

293
00:10:24,150 --> 00:10:22,640
further there are people who go out in

294
00:10:26,230 --> 00:10:24,160
the serengeti with

295
00:10:28,069 --> 00:10:26,240
tranquilizer guns and shoot these

296
00:10:29,509 --> 00:10:28,079
animals and knock them out for a period

297
00:10:30,949 --> 00:10:29,519
of time and study them and then they

298
00:10:33,110 --> 00:10:30,959
wake up well that's that's pretty close

299
00:10:35,030 --> 00:10:33,120
to you know what some people say they go

300
00:10:35,910 --> 00:10:35,040
through with abduction

301
00:10:38,150 --> 00:10:35,920
so

302
00:10:39,430 --> 00:10:38,160
um it just seems like

303
00:10:41,590 --> 00:10:39,440
i think it really all comes back to

304
00:10:43,509 --> 00:10:41,600
whatever they are is that they're not

305
00:10:45,110 --> 00:10:43,519
making any they're not trying to be

306
00:10:48,069 --> 00:10:45,120
secretive about it they're here a lot

307
00:10:49,990 --> 00:10:48,079
right and um and i think they just

308
00:10:51,750 --> 00:10:50,000
observe they don't really

309
00:10:53,829 --> 00:10:51,760
interfere with that daily lives and like

310
00:10:55,670 --> 00:10:53,839
i said there's 70 stories in the book of

311
00:10:57,829 --> 00:10:55,680
military encounters with ufos but i

312
00:10:59,670 --> 00:10:57,839
think only about three or four of them

313
00:11:01,590 --> 00:10:59,680
have to do with the ufos actually doing

314
00:11:04,389 --> 00:11:01,600
something to affect the outcome of a

315
00:11:06,630 --> 00:11:04,399
military engagement so for the most part

316
00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:06,640
they're just watching yeah yeah and i

317
00:11:09,269 --> 00:11:07,760
think uh

318
00:11:10,710 --> 00:11:09,279
you mentioned a number of times where

319
00:11:12,870 --> 00:11:10,720
not a number of times but a few times

320
00:11:14,870 --> 00:11:12,880
there's someone actually engaged and

321
00:11:16,150 --> 00:11:14,880
fired and uh

322
00:11:19,509 --> 00:11:16,160
which all

323
00:11:20,870 --> 00:11:19,519
began back with the la sighting

324
00:11:22,870 --> 00:11:20,880
uh right

325
00:11:26,389 --> 00:11:22,880
back uh wha what was that dave was that

326
00:11:29,350 --> 00:11:26,399
52 or in los angeles it was uh february

327
00:11:32,790 --> 00:11:29,360
24th and 5th of 1942 42 that's right

328
00:11:34,710 --> 00:11:32,800
yeah right after pearl harbor um the los

329
00:11:37,829 --> 00:11:34,720
angeles at the time two million people

330
00:11:39,670 --> 00:11:37,839
lived there lots of defense plants there

331
00:11:41,509 --> 00:11:39,680
so um

332
00:11:43,269 --> 00:11:41,519
and lots of military and civil defense

333
00:11:45,750 --> 00:11:43,279
people in the city

334
00:11:47,350 --> 00:11:45,760
and um there back then people thought

335
00:11:49,750 --> 00:11:47,360
that um

336
00:11:52,150 --> 00:11:49,760
the japanese were going to physically

337
00:11:53,509 --> 00:11:52,160
invade california right yeah

338
00:11:56,710 --> 00:11:53,519
so

339
00:11:58,389 --> 00:11:56,720
naval intelligence told the people in la

340
00:11:59,829 --> 00:11:58,399
that on this particular night they were

341
00:12:01,430 --> 00:11:59,839
suspecting that there was going to be a

342
00:12:04,069 --> 00:12:01,440
japanese air raid

343
00:12:06,069 --> 00:12:04,079
so everyone was on a heightened alert

344
00:12:08,629 --> 00:12:06,079
there were a lot of anti-aircraft guns

345
00:12:11,509 --> 00:12:08,639
around these defense plants in l.a and

346
00:12:13,350 --> 00:12:11,519
around 1 30 in the morning um sure

347
00:12:15,990 --> 00:12:13,360
enough these things start showing up on

348
00:12:17,590 --> 00:12:16,000
radar um they were not airplanes they

349
00:12:19,750 --> 00:12:17,600
were silver discs they were some were

350
00:12:21,430 --> 00:12:19,760
flying in chevron formations others were

351
00:12:23,670 --> 00:12:21,440
flying separately

352
00:12:25,670 --> 00:12:23,680
the air raid sirens run off they figure

353
00:12:28,069 --> 00:12:25,680
that at least half the people hold up so

354
00:12:30,949 --> 00:12:28,079
maybe a million people saw these things

355
00:12:33,670 --> 00:12:30,959
lots of police lots of reporters we have

356
00:12:35,910 --> 00:12:33,680
lots of quotes from reporters who

357
00:12:37,350 --> 00:12:35,920
were out that night and la had seven

358
00:12:39,110 --> 00:12:37,360
daily newspapers at the time so there's

359
00:12:40,389 --> 00:12:39,120
no shortage of reporters

360
00:12:42,069 --> 00:12:40,399
they were watching these things from the

361
00:12:44,629 --> 00:12:42,079
roofs of the tallest buildings a lot of

362
00:12:47,110 --> 00:12:44,639
times accompanied by military or police

363
00:12:48,790 --> 00:12:47,120
and what they saw was as they say these

364
00:12:50,949 --> 00:12:48,800
silver discs flying over the city

365
00:12:52,310 --> 00:12:50,959
anti-aircraft parties opened up on them

366
00:12:55,190 --> 00:12:52,320
and kept firing out them for two and a

367
00:12:56,870 --> 00:12:55,200
half hours um people saw

368
00:12:58,790 --> 00:12:56,880
anti-aircraft shells hitting these

369
00:13:00,949 --> 00:12:58,800
things but having no effect in them

370
00:13:02,870 --> 00:13:00,959
in fact so many anti-aircraft shells

371
00:13:04,150 --> 00:13:02,880
were fired off when they blow up if they

372
00:13:06,069 --> 00:13:04,160
don't hit anything

373
00:13:07,829 --> 00:13:06,079
shrapnel comes down and kills six people

374
00:13:09,509 --> 00:13:07,839
on the ground yeah did a lot of uh

375
00:13:10,310 --> 00:13:09,519
property damage so

376
00:13:14,710 --> 00:13:10,320
uh

377
00:13:16,470 --> 00:13:14,720
point of this whatever was going on um a

378
00:13:18,710 --> 00:13:16,480
photographer from the los angeles times

379
00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:18,720
took a picture which is in the book

380
00:13:23,590 --> 00:13:21,360
of a ufo just caught in seven or eight

381
00:13:25,269 --> 00:13:23,600
searchlights with anti-aircraft fire

382
00:13:27,269 --> 00:13:25,279
firing at it and and if you look at the

383
00:13:30,230 --> 00:13:27,279
photo it can be nothing other than a

384
00:13:33,190 --> 00:13:30,240
flying saucer right yeah the next day

385
00:13:35,030 --> 00:13:33,200
the army and the navy

386
00:13:36,710 --> 00:13:35,040
disagreed on what had actually happened

387
00:13:39,590 --> 00:13:36,720
the navy wanted to say that it was just

388
00:13:41,269 --> 00:13:39,600
strictly war judas uh but the army knew

389
00:13:43,269 --> 00:13:41,279
that this wasn't the case and so they

390
00:13:45,030 --> 00:13:43,279
came up the story that um what actually

391
00:13:46,949 --> 00:13:45,040
was was um

392
00:13:49,910 --> 00:13:46,959
a japanese bomb is disguised as

393
00:13:51,829 --> 00:13:49,920
airliners bombing l.a

394
00:13:53,110 --> 00:13:51,839
and taking off from a secret base in

395
00:13:55,269 --> 00:13:53,120
mexico

396
00:13:57,269 --> 00:13:55,279
which frankly sounds like the plot to

397
00:13:59,509 --> 00:13:57,279
one of my other books

398
00:14:01,269 --> 00:13:59,519
um so no one believed that and so what

399
00:14:03,670 --> 00:14:01,279
happened was the wasp senses then

400
00:14:05,350 --> 00:14:03,680
stepped in at the end of that day and

401
00:14:07,750 --> 00:14:05,360
just clamped down all information on

402
00:14:09,750 --> 00:14:07,760
what happened and it went away i mean

403
00:14:10,710 --> 00:14:09,760
it's amazing but you know the country

404
00:14:12,150 --> 00:14:10,720
was

405
00:14:13,670 --> 00:14:12,160
into other things you know the world war

406
00:14:15,350 --> 00:14:13,680
two it just started people were kind of

407
00:14:17,509 --> 00:14:15,360
freaking out to know what the outcome

408
00:14:19,350 --> 00:14:17,519
was going to be so um people more or

409
00:14:21,110 --> 00:14:19,360
less forgot about it it only came back

410
00:14:23,509 --> 00:14:21,120
briefly when steven spielberg made a

411
00:14:26,069 --> 00:14:23,519
really bad movie called 1942 which is

412
00:14:27,670 --> 00:14:26,079
about this but um the movie itself was

413
00:14:28,870 --> 00:14:27,680
really kind of like animal house in

414
00:14:30,949 --> 00:14:28,880
airplanes

415
00:14:32,949 --> 00:14:30,959
and it was like a really bad movie and

416
00:14:33,750 --> 00:14:32,959
and if anyone if people out they have

417
00:14:36,150 --> 00:14:33,760
any

418
00:14:38,710 --> 00:14:36,160
knowledge of this um incident it's it's

419
00:14:40,230 --> 00:14:38,720
a lot of it is from that movie uh so no

420
00:14:42,470 --> 00:14:40,240
one has ever figured out what happened

421
00:14:44,470 --> 00:14:42,480
there was no official us investigation

422
00:14:46,230 --> 00:14:44,480
done but once again you know from all

423
00:14:48,629 --> 00:14:46,240
the people who saw it and from the photo

424
00:14:51,030 --> 00:14:48,639
that the los angeles times had it's it's

425
00:14:52,949 --> 00:14:51,040
really hard to argue that

426
00:14:54,470 --> 00:14:52,959
it was something other than a ufo

427
00:14:57,110 --> 00:14:54,480
because that's what a true looks like in

428
00:15:00,069 --> 00:14:57,120
the photo right now so then five more

429
00:15:01,990 --> 00:15:00,079
years goes by and then kenneth arnold

430
00:15:04,710 --> 00:15:02,000
um is

431
00:15:05,910 --> 00:15:04,720
which i never realized the part um in

432
00:15:07,670 --> 00:15:05,920
your book

433
00:15:11,110 --> 00:15:07,680
which uh talks about that he was hired

434
00:15:12,870 --> 00:15:11,120
as a as a writer about the incident that

435
00:15:14,870 --> 00:15:12,880
happened three days before his sighting

436
00:15:16,470 --> 00:15:14,880
right the maury island incident and that

437
00:15:20,470 --> 00:15:16,480
that sounds almost

438
00:15:22,389 --> 00:15:20,480
or something it just seems weird to you

439
00:15:24,150 --> 00:15:22,399
know how that all entangled together can

440
00:15:25,990 --> 00:15:24,160
you just give a brief description on how

441
00:15:27,430 --> 00:15:26,000
that all happened well the maury island

442
00:15:30,550 --> 00:15:27,440
incident is is probably one of the

443
00:15:32,310 --> 00:15:30,560
strangest ufo stories out there

444
00:15:33,829 --> 00:15:32,320
and that's why we felt we had to put it

445
00:15:36,790 --> 00:15:33,839
in the book uh kenneth donald real

446
00:15:37,990 --> 00:15:36,800
briefly is the person who he saw

447
00:15:39,829 --> 00:15:38,000
a number of

448
00:15:41,750 --> 00:15:39,839
ufos flying over

449
00:15:47,110 --> 00:15:41,760
the cascade mountains in washington

450
00:15:49,430 --> 00:15:47,120
state this was in uh july of um 1947 and

451
00:15:51,509 --> 00:15:49,440
when he he was a private businessman

452
00:15:53,030 --> 00:15:51,519
flying alone in his own plane when he

453
00:15:55,430 --> 00:15:53,040
landed he mentioned it to some other

454
00:15:57,189 --> 00:15:55,440
pilots and

455
00:15:59,189 --> 00:15:57,199
soon thereafter the press got ahold of

456
00:16:00,310 --> 00:15:59,199
the story and he mentioned to the press

457
00:16:02,790 --> 00:16:00,320
that

458
00:16:05,509 --> 00:16:02,800
these things look like sauces skipping

459
00:16:07,509 --> 00:16:05,519
across the surface of a pond and the

460
00:16:09,910 --> 00:16:07,519
media took that quote and turned it into

461
00:16:11,590 --> 00:16:09,920
flying saucers so that's how we have the

462
00:16:13,509 --> 00:16:11,600
term flying sauces

463
00:16:15,350 --> 00:16:13,519
but what happened was three days before

464
00:16:18,150 --> 00:16:15,360
that happened there was a man named

465
00:16:20,870 --> 00:16:18,160
harold dowell who ran a business off of

466
00:16:23,509 --> 00:16:20,880
tacoma washington retrieving

467
00:16:25,189 --> 00:16:23,519
cut down trees that had fallen into

468
00:16:26,870 --> 00:16:25,199
tacoma bay

469
00:16:28,389 --> 00:16:26,880
and he would retrieve them and bring

470
00:16:29,670 --> 00:16:28,399
them back to the lumber companies a lot

471
00:16:30,870 --> 00:16:29,680
of lumber companies in that part of the

472
00:16:32,710 --> 00:16:30,880
country so

473
00:16:34,949 --> 00:16:32,720
he was out there one day with his son

474
00:16:36,470 --> 00:16:34,959
two other workers and his dog on this

475
00:16:37,509 --> 00:16:36,480
boat doing this

476
00:16:40,069 --> 00:16:37,519
when

477
00:16:41,670 --> 00:16:40,079
um five ufos came

478
00:16:43,829 --> 00:16:41,680
appeared out of nowhere and and were

479
00:16:46,150 --> 00:16:43,839
hovering right over his boat

480
00:16:48,949 --> 00:16:46,160
one of them seemed to be in trouble

481
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:48,959
and the others kind of came up to it and

482
00:16:52,389 --> 00:16:50,880
gave it like almost like jumping a car

483
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:52,399
they gave it like an electrical charge

484
00:16:56,629 --> 00:16:54,240
and the thing kind of revitalized itself

485
00:17:00,069 --> 00:16:56,639
in the in the process of doing that it

486
00:17:02,629 --> 00:17:00,079
expelled this um what they called slag

487
00:17:04,390 --> 00:17:02,639
which is the um byproduct of making

488
00:17:06,069 --> 00:17:04,400
steel but there's no steel mills up in

489
00:17:07,669 --> 00:17:06,079
this part of the world but anyway this

490
00:17:08,789 --> 00:17:07,679
leg started coming down on these people

491
00:17:10,630 --> 00:17:08,799
in the boat

492
00:17:12,069 --> 00:17:10,640
they beached the boat on maury island

493
00:17:13,990 --> 00:17:12,079
and took cover and kind of watched this

494
00:17:16,390 --> 00:17:14,000
whole fantastic thing going on

495
00:17:18,710 --> 00:17:16,400
above them and

496
00:17:21,189 --> 00:17:18,720
once the disabled ufo seemed to

497
00:17:23,429 --> 00:17:21,199
stabilize all the ufos just bumped off

498
00:17:25,829 --> 00:17:23,439
the gun in a second

499
00:17:28,549 --> 00:17:25,839
um they got back on the boat

500
00:17:30,710 --> 00:17:28,559
got back to tacoma harold son had been

501
00:17:32,070 --> 00:17:30,720
injured so he brings him to the hospital

502
00:17:33,909 --> 00:17:32,080
and the people rest the people in the

503
00:17:35,190 --> 00:17:33,919
boat swear they'll never talk about this

504
00:17:36,470 --> 00:17:35,200
incident again

505
00:17:38,470 --> 00:17:36,480
the next day

506
00:17:40,230 --> 00:17:38,480
a guy comes to harold down's house and

507
00:17:42,870 --> 00:17:40,240
he convinces him that he's an insurance

508
00:17:44,950 --> 00:17:42,880
man insurance salesman

509
00:17:46,549 --> 00:17:44,960
he convinces him to go out to breakfast

510
00:17:48,230 --> 00:17:46,559
with them and at breakfast though this

511
00:17:49,590 --> 00:17:48,240
gentleman who was all dressed in black

512
00:17:51,110 --> 00:17:49,600
so he might have been one of the first

513
00:17:52,470 --> 00:17:51,120
men in black yeah

514
00:17:54,630 --> 00:17:52,480
i said to him listen i know what

515
00:17:56,390 --> 00:17:54,640
happened to you at maury island he

516
00:17:58,549 --> 00:17:56,400
started ticking off things that only

517
00:18:00,549 --> 00:17:58,559
someone who was there would know

518
00:18:03,190 --> 00:18:00,559
and said it's in your best interest not

519
00:18:04,950 --> 00:18:03,200
to talk about this to anybody

520
00:18:06,390 --> 00:18:04,960
if you do you're going to be in trouble

521
00:18:07,510 --> 00:18:06,400
and there's going to be problems for

522
00:18:09,270 --> 00:18:07,520
your family

523
00:18:10,070 --> 00:18:09,280
and your job

524
00:18:11,909 --> 00:18:10,080
so

525
00:18:13,750 --> 00:18:11,919
this kind of put a scare into heroin now

526
00:18:15,590 --> 00:18:13,760
but later on that afternoon he went and

527
00:18:17,270 --> 00:18:15,600
he told the story to his boss a guy

528
00:18:19,350 --> 00:18:17,280
named fred christman

529
00:18:21,110 --> 00:18:19,360
whose name will be important later on

530
00:18:24,230 --> 00:18:21,120
and chrisman says he went out to murray

531
00:18:26,070 --> 00:18:24,240
allen and he too saw some kind of ufos

532
00:18:27,750 --> 00:18:26,080
so together they got in touch with an

533
00:18:29,669 --> 00:18:27,760
editor in chicago of a science fiction

534
00:18:31,830 --> 00:18:29,679
magazine and convinced this guy to do a

535
00:18:33,669 --> 00:18:31,840
story in what they had seen

536
00:18:35,270 --> 00:18:33,679
and the editor thought

537
00:18:37,510 --> 00:18:35,280
who better to

538
00:18:39,669 --> 00:18:37,520
write the story than kenneth arnold the

539
00:18:43,029 --> 00:18:39,679
guy who was responsible for the coinage

540
00:18:44,070 --> 00:18:43,039
of the term flying saucers so even

541
00:18:46,230 --> 00:18:44,080
though kenneth arnold wasn't a

542
00:18:47,590 --> 00:18:46,240
journalist he agrees to do the job oh

543
00:18:49,750 --> 00:18:47,600
and see that's the connection i didn't

544
00:18:52,390 --> 00:18:49,760
get before i got it this was his first

545
00:18:55,110 --> 00:18:52,400
writing assignment yeah and last yeah

546
00:18:56,870 --> 00:18:55,120
so he flew to tacoma he got a hotel room

547
00:18:58,390 --> 00:18:56,880
he talked to these two guys and as they

548
00:19:00,470 --> 00:18:58,400
were in there talking

549
00:19:01,270 --> 00:19:00,480
about what had happened he gets a phone

550
00:19:03,669 --> 00:19:01,280
call

551
00:19:06,150 --> 00:19:03,679
from a newspaper editor of the tacoma

552
00:19:08,789 --> 00:19:06,160
times and he says i don't know who you

553
00:19:10,789 --> 00:19:08,799
people are i don't i don't really know

554
00:19:12,070 --> 00:19:10,799
what you're doing but i have someone on

555
00:19:13,510 --> 00:19:12,080
the other line who's telling me every

556
00:19:14,710 --> 00:19:13,520
single thing you're seeing inside that

557
00:19:16,710 --> 00:19:14,720
hotel room

558
00:19:17,669 --> 00:19:16,720
so right away kenneth and dowell and

559
00:19:20,150 --> 00:19:17,679
crispin

560
00:19:23,029 --> 00:19:20,160
kind of freak out and they um scan the

561
00:19:25,029 --> 00:19:23,039
rooms for bugs or listening devices

562
00:19:26,630 --> 00:19:25,039
can't find anything

563
00:19:29,110 --> 00:19:26,640
at that point they decided they should

564
00:19:31,110 --> 00:19:29,120
get the military involved they

565
00:19:32,950 --> 00:19:31,120
at that time arnold had now made some

566
00:19:34,950 --> 00:19:32,960
contacts with the military this was

567
00:19:37,110 --> 00:19:34,960
about a month and a half after his

568
00:19:39,270 --> 00:19:37,120
sighting and

569
00:19:43,029 --> 00:19:39,280
two military intelligence officers flew

570
00:19:45,909 --> 00:19:43,039
up from california to tacoma and a b-25

571
00:19:47,190 --> 00:19:45,919
bomber and landed and joined them in the

572
00:19:50,630 --> 00:19:47,200
hotel room

573
00:19:52,789 --> 00:19:50,640
and debriefed let's say the two guys

574
00:19:55,909 --> 00:19:52,799
chrisman and harold dow

575
00:19:57,190 --> 00:19:55,919
and uh got a piece of these slag and

576
00:19:59,029 --> 00:19:57,200
then left

577
00:20:01,029 --> 00:19:59,039
uh they went back to tacoma airport

578
00:20:02,950 --> 00:20:01,039
which was also a military airport i had

579
00:20:04,789 --> 00:20:02,960
a brief conversation with the

580
00:20:06,710 --> 00:20:04,799
intelligence officer there

581
00:20:08,789 --> 00:20:06,720
got on their plane to take off to go

582
00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:08,799
back to california and within 30 minutes

583
00:20:13,350 --> 00:20:10,640
both of these guys were dead

584
00:20:16,470 --> 00:20:13,360
uh their b25 crashed very close to where

585
00:20:18,470 --> 00:20:16,480
kenneth arnold had had his sighting

586
00:20:20,630 --> 00:20:18,480
at that point arnold said you know this

587
00:20:22,950 --> 00:20:20,640
is getting too weird for me

588
00:20:24,710 --> 00:20:22,960
he gives up his journalism career he

589
00:20:26,230 --> 00:20:24,720
calls the magazine and said you know i

590
00:20:28,149 --> 00:20:26,240
can't do this anymore he gets in his

591
00:20:29,909 --> 00:20:28,159
plane to fly home and something goes

592
00:20:31,990 --> 00:20:29,919
wrong with his plan and he almost

593
00:20:34,070 --> 00:20:32,000
crashes and the fact that he was

594
00:20:36,149 --> 00:20:34,080
such a skill pilot probably prevented

595
00:20:39,430 --> 00:20:36,159
him from being killed

596
00:20:40,950 --> 00:20:39,440
after that the fbi got involved and and

597
00:20:42,390 --> 00:20:40,960
the rumors started that it was a hoax

598
00:20:43,430 --> 00:20:42,400
and then other rumors that it was

599
00:20:46,149 --> 00:20:43,440
actually some kind of a

600
00:20:48,549 --> 00:20:46,159
counterintelligence operation uh we have

601
00:20:50,630 --> 00:20:48,559
we quote cables in the book from

602
00:20:53,110 --> 00:20:50,640
dre hoover to his

603
00:20:55,669 --> 00:20:53,120
agents in tacoma who say that

604
00:20:57,190 --> 00:20:55,679
they know that chrisman and dao believed

605
00:20:59,029 --> 00:20:57,200
what they saw they didn't believe it was

606
00:21:00,630 --> 00:20:59,039
a hoax jack hoover didn't think it was a

607
00:21:02,950 --> 00:21:00,640
hoax

608
00:21:04,230 --> 00:21:02,960
and then um no one that was able to

609
00:21:05,110 --> 00:21:04,240
figure it out

610
00:21:07,190 --> 00:21:05,120
um

611
00:21:08,870 --> 00:21:07,200
they spoke about it later on and so did

612
00:21:11,990 --> 00:21:08,880
kenneth arnold speak about it later on

613
00:21:13,830 --> 00:21:12,000
at various ufo um conventions and stuff

614
00:21:15,830 --> 00:21:13,840
but the interesting thing other very

615
00:21:17,350 --> 00:21:15,840
strange thing was that years later fred

616
00:21:19,669 --> 00:21:17,360
christman

617
00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:19,679
was called before a panel investigating

618
00:21:23,350 --> 00:21:21,760
the jfk assassination

619
00:21:24,870 --> 00:21:23,360
because um

620
00:21:26,310 --> 00:21:24,880
if if you know about the jfk

621
00:21:28,149 --> 00:21:26,320
assassination you know that at the time

622
00:21:29,990 --> 00:21:28,159
of the assassination the dallas police

623
00:21:32,310 --> 00:21:30,000
arrested three hobos on the railroad

624
00:21:34,310 --> 00:21:32,320
track nearby and one of them had the

625
00:21:36,390 --> 00:21:34,320
name of uh fred christman his name and

626
00:21:37,830 --> 00:21:36,400
phone number on him that's bizarre it is

627
00:21:39,190 --> 00:21:37,840
bizarre no one's ever been able to

628
00:21:41,270 --> 00:21:39,200
figure out the connections or whatever

629
00:21:43,510 --> 00:21:41,280
but as i said um

630
00:21:45,830 --> 00:21:43,520
it's one of the strangest stories in ufo

631
00:21:47,350 --> 00:21:45,840
history that we came upon right right

632
00:21:49,350 --> 00:21:47,360
now um

633
00:21:51,669 --> 00:21:49,360
i can't recall i read your book i

634
00:21:53,350 --> 00:21:51,679
finished it just recently but was there

635
00:21:55,270 --> 00:21:53,360
any civil war

636
00:21:58,070 --> 00:21:55,280
there was no civil war ones that's

637
00:22:00,710 --> 00:21:58,080
interesting was revolutionary ones and

638
00:22:03,110 --> 00:22:00,720
world war one into in korea and all the

639
00:22:05,029 --> 00:22:03,120
way up to present day walk but as hot as

640
00:22:06,710 --> 00:22:05,039
um we looked we couldn't find anything

641
00:22:08,710 --> 00:22:06,720
in the civil war yeah yeah i didn't

642
00:22:11,029 --> 00:22:08,720
remember interesting and what about

643
00:22:13,110 --> 00:22:11,039
other wars in other countries like you

644
00:22:15,029 --> 00:22:13,120
know uh just

645
00:22:18,310 --> 00:22:15,039
battles and other countries i mean as

646
00:22:20,149 --> 00:22:18,320
far as i i've heard uh like 20 years ago

647
00:22:21,510 --> 00:22:20,159
that there were there's over 50 000

648
00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:21,520
recorded wars which is kind of

649
00:22:25,909 --> 00:22:23,280
depressing

650
00:22:27,909 --> 00:22:25,919
so are there little did you find any uh

651
00:22:29,669 --> 00:22:27,919
reference to like

652
00:22:31,750 --> 00:22:29,679
wars battles between other countries

653
00:22:33,270 --> 00:22:31,760
where the u.s wasn't involved no we just

654
00:22:35,430 --> 00:22:33,280
really had to

655
00:22:39,270 --> 00:22:35,440
narrow it down to um

656
00:22:41,029 --> 00:22:39,280
ufo i mean u.s and ufo encounters or you

657
00:22:43,029 --> 00:22:41,039
know when it comes to world war one

658
00:22:44,870 --> 00:22:43,039
world war ii uh with the british there's

659
00:22:45,590 --> 00:22:44,880
some british stories in there but you

660
00:22:50,149 --> 00:22:45,600
know

661
00:22:52,149 --> 00:22:50,159
the bosphorous war in 1893 or something

662
00:22:53,430 --> 00:22:52,159
i don't know you know maybe who knows

663
00:22:55,110 --> 00:22:53,440
yeah yeah

664
00:22:57,190 --> 00:22:55,120
um

665
00:22:58,470 --> 00:22:57,200
the other thing i'd like to talk about

666
00:22:59,590 --> 00:22:58,480
is um

667
00:23:02,470 --> 00:22:59,600
a lot of times you mentioned in your

668
00:23:04,950 --> 00:23:02,480
book which is pretty typical is that

669
00:23:07,029 --> 00:23:04,960
people are told not to talk about it now

670
00:23:08,390 --> 00:23:07,039
you hear as far as someone like

671
00:23:10,710 --> 00:23:08,400
researching or

672
00:23:12,630 --> 00:23:10,720
or paying attention to ufos and things

673
00:23:15,590 --> 00:23:12,640
like that you you always hear about the

674
00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:15,600
foo fighters but no real detail

675
00:23:19,270 --> 00:23:17,840
um other than gordon and you know

676
00:23:20,630 --> 00:23:19,280
mentioning it

677
00:23:22,630 --> 00:23:20,640
a few times

678
00:23:24,390 --> 00:23:22,640
but there was a lot going on during

679
00:23:25,909 --> 00:23:24,400
those world war one and war especially

680
00:23:27,029 --> 00:23:25,919
world war ii

681
00:23:29,270 --> 00:23:27,039
um

682
00:23:31,029 --> 00:23:29,280
how many how many reported would you ha

683
00:23:34,310 --> 00:23:31,039
if you had to guess how many reports in

684
00:23:36,950 --> 00:23:34,320
total would you have any idea well

685
00:23:38,710 --> 00:23:36,960
not really because i i can guess

686
00:23:41,830 --> 00:23:38,720
and i'm gonna basically guess on my

687
00:23:44,149 --> 00:23:41,840
conversations with uh another writer who

688
00:23:46,310 --> 00:23:44,159
i was able to work with um keith chester

689
00:23:47,990 --> 00:23:46,320
who wrote a book called strange company

690
00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:48,000
about five years ago and it's really the

691
00:23:52,710 --> 00:23:50,640
bible on foo fighters he really did a

692
00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:52,720
lot of research and went down to

693
00:23:56,149 --> 00:23:54,240
washington dc and got right into the

694
00:23:57,669 --> 00:23:56,159
atheist force intelligence reports and

695
00:24:00,310 --> 00:23:57,679
stuff and um

696
00:24:01,990 --> 00:24:00,320
he he came upon about a thousand reports

697
00:24:03,750 --> 00:24:02,000
of foo fighters that could be connected

698
00:24:06,710 --> 00:24:03,760
to foo fighters between the british and

699
00:24:10,549 --> 00:24:06,720
in american obama commands

700
00:24:12,390 --> 00:24:10,559
but he also says that estimates that um

701
00:24:14,149 --> 00:24:12,400
maybe 10

702
00:24:16,710 --> 00:24:14,159
this represents only 10 percent of what

703
00:24:18,950 --> 00:24:16,720
was actually seen because at the time

704
00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:18,960
the intelligence officers of the 8th air

705
00:24:22,630 --> 00:24:21,360
force and obama command

706
00:24:25,669 --> 00:24:22,640
really

707
00:24:27,830 --> 00:24:25,679
dissuaded obama crews and pilots from

708
00:24:29,909 --> 00:24:27,840
talking about seeing these things

709
00:24:32,630 --> 00:24:29,919
because for the first

710
00:24:34,710 --> 00:24:32,640
first reason one reason is they didn't

711
00:24:35,990 --> 00:24:34,720
want any of this uh flash gordon buck

712
00:24:37,510 --> 00:24:36,000
rogers stuff

713
00:24:39,590 --> 00:24:37,520
in their intelligence reports is what

714
00:24:41,590 --> 00:24:39,600
they used to refer to it as a number two

715
00:24:43,430 --> 00:24:41,600
there was a group think especially among

716
00:24:45,990 --> 00:24:43,440
the british that what these things were

717
00:24:47,990 --> 00:24:46,000
were actually nazi secret weapons yeah

718
00:24:49,909 --> 00:24:48,000
and and that the prevailing wisdom was

719
00:24:52,149 --> 00:24:49,919
that look we don't have the time or the

720
00:24:54,310 --> 00:24:52,159
ex money or the where thought to go and

721
00:24:55,990 --> 00:24:54,320
look into exactly what all this stuff is

722
00:24:56,789 --> 00:24:56,000
we have to win the war once we win the

723
00:24:58,390 --> 00:24:56,799
war

724
00:25:00,149 --> 00:24:58,400
we're so sure that the german secret

725
00:25:01,990 --> 00:25:00,159
weapons that we'll find out what they

726
00:25:03,430 --> 00:25:02,000
are once we win the law

727
00:25:04,870 --> 00:25:03,440
well the thing was was that when the war

728
00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:04,880
was over

729
00:25:09,269 --> 00:25:06,960
and they went into germany they found no

730
00:25:11,430 --> 00:25:09,279
evidence that these things were german

731
00:25:13,110 --> 00:25:11,440
super weapons for them to be german

732
00:25:16,470 --> 00:25:13,120
supreme weapons they would have to in

733
00:25:18,870 --> 00:25:16,480
into for the germans to be making aerial

734
00:25:20,390 --> 00:25:18,880
aerial vehicles with the capability that

735
00:25:22,070 --> 00:25:20,400
these things had

736
00:25:23,750 --> 00:25:22,080
right it would have been a project on

737
00:25:25,909 --> 00:25:23,760
the size of the manhattan project it

738
00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:25,919
would have been i mean out of this world

739
00:25:32,549 --> 00:25:29,120
literally and um there was no uh you

740
00:25:33,430 --> 00:25:32,559
know no huge factory found there was no

741
00:25:35,269 --> 00:25:33,440
huge

742
00:25:37,590 --> 00:25:35,279
support apparatus that would have been

743
00:25:39,269 --> 00:25:37,600
needed found no one ever came forward

744
00:25:40,470 --> 00:25:39,279
and said i was flying these things you

745
00:25:41,669 --> 00:25:40,480
know in fact the germans said to the

746
00:25:43,510 --> 00:25:41,679
americans we thought they were your

747
00:25:44,549 --> 00:25:43,520
secret weapons and the japanese said the

748
00:25:46,710 --> 00:25:44,559
same thing

749
00:25:47,909 --> 00:25:46,720
uh they asked the japanese after the war

750
00:25:50,070 --> 00:25:47,919
first of all they said did you have any

751
00:25:52,470 --> 00:25:50,080
planes over los angeles on the night of

752
00:25:54,470 --> 00:25:52,480
february 24th and 25th they said no they

753
00:25:56,390 --> 00:25:54,480
did not have the technology to like move

754
00:25:58,310 --> 00:25:56,400
a carrier close to california at that

755
00:26:00,710 --> 00:25:58,320
time or ever during the war

756
00:26:03,110 --> 00:26:00,720
and um they said no we have no idea what

757
00:26:04,870 --> 00:26:03,120
that was and we would see these foo

758
00:26:06,390 --> 00:26:04,880
fighters too a lot of them actually

759
00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:06,400
happened in the pacific there too and we

760
00:26:08,950 --> 00:26:07,600
thought they were american secret

761
00:26:10,549 --> 00:26:08,960
weapons so

762
00:26:12,710 --> 00:26:10,559
no one ever figured out what they were

763
00:26:14,230 --> 00:26:12,720
and i think it was what's really telling

764
00:26:16,549 --> 00:26:14,240
is that one once the war was over they

765
00:26:19,190 --> 00:26:16,559
all went away yeah no one saw them you

766
00:26:20,470 --> 00:26:19,200
know months later or anything so

767
00:26:22,149 --> 00:26:20,480
once again it's one of the it's one

768
00:26:23,909 --> 00:26:22,159
piece of this whole big ufo puzzle that

769
00:26:26,549 --> 00:26:23,919
no one's ever been able to figure out

770
00:26:28,710 --> 00:26:26,559
right right and and then night after

771
00:26:31,029 --> 00:26:28,720
1947 all of a sudden

772
00:26:32,549 --> 00:26:31,039
you know they were everywhere right and

773
00:26:33,830 --> 00:26:32,559
a lot and a lot of people are

774
00:26:35,669 --> 00:26:33,840
speculating that had something to do

775
00:26:38,470 --> 00:26:35,679
with the nuclear

776
00:26:40,470 --> 00:26:38,480
arms testing things like that i mean it

777
00:26:42,230 --> 00:26:40,480
could very well be there's stories in

778
00:26:45,029 --> 00:26:42,240
there about how um

779
00:26:47,830 --> 00:26:45,039
ufos show up a lot over uh nuclear

780
00:26:49,669 --> 00:26:47,840
plants yes um not just um

781
00:26:50,789 --> 00:26:49,679
nuclear weapons plants but for instance

782
00:26:51,750 --> 00:26:50,799
in washington there's a place called

783
00:26:53,990 --> 00:26:51,760
hanafan

784
00:26:56,149 --> 00:26:54,000
nuclear facility where they made the

785
00:26:59,110 --> 00:26:56,159
first fuel for the atomic weapons and

786
00:27:00,870 --> 00:26:59,120
and this place you know had ufos flying

787
00:27:03,909 --> 00:27:00,880
around that

788
00:27:05,590 --> 00:27:03,919
almost on a daily basis in the late 40s

789
00:27:07,669 --> 00:27:05,600
there's a story in there about the

790
00:27:10,070 --> 00:27:07,679
aircraft carrier franklin donald

791
00:27:11,669 --> 00:27:10,080
roosevelt that was in service for 30

792
00:27:14,149 --> 00:27:11,679
years it was the first

793
00:27:15,750 --> 00:27:14,159
u.s navy warship to have nuclear weapons

794
00:27:18,549 --> 00:27:15,760
on board and

795
00:27:21,909 --> 00:27:18,559
this ship was virtually stocked by ufos

796
00:27:23,909 --> 00:27:21,919
for 30 years we came on six instances

797
00:27:25,909 --> 00:27:23,919
where ufos were

798
00:27:28,710 --> 00:27:25,919
following it hovering over it lots of

799
00:27:30,710 --> 00:27:28,720
people saw them uh right up until uh

800
00:27:32,549 --> 00:27:30,720
almost as last year's in service ufos

801
00:27:34,549 --> 00:27:32,559
were just showing up over this

802
00:27:35,830 --> 00:27:34,559
aircraft carrier on a regular basis

803
00:27:38,390 --> 00:27:35,840
and then of course we have a lot of

804
00:27:40,630 --> 00:27:38,400
stories about ufos showing up over icm

805
00:27:41,750 --> 00:27:40,640
bases in the 60s and 70s so they seem to

806
00:27:43,990 --> 00:27:41,760
be very

807
00:27:46,549 --> 00:27:44,000
interested in our nuclear weapons and

808
00:27:48,549 --> 00:27:46,559
and what we're doing with them right

809
00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:48,559
i know right now steven bassett are you

810
00:27:52,470 --> 00:27:51,440
familiar with who he is he has a uh

811
00:27:57,510 --> 00:27:52,480
petition

812
00:27:59,750 --> 00:27:57,520
about the nuclear arms um ufos showing

813
00:28:00,630 --> 00:27:59,760
up over with nuclear arms and disarming

814
00:28:02,070 --> 00:28:00,640
them and

815
00:28:04,549 --> 00:28:02,080
things like that which is quite

816
00:28:05,990 --> 00:28:04,559
fascinating it's it uh kind of makes you

817
00:28:07,669 --> 00:28:06,000
think that okay they're trying to tell

818
00:28:08,789 --> 00:28:07,679
us something you know

819
00:28:10,870 --> 00:28:08,799
i think they are trying to tell us

820
00:28:12,630 --> 00:28:10,880
something um we

821
00:28:14,549 --> 00:28:12,640
there are so many instances where we

822
00:28:16,870 --> 00:28:14,559
could only put i think 20 of them in the

823
00:28:19,029 --> 00:28:16,880
book but there are there were

824
00:28:21,430 --> 00:28:19,039
dozens of them where ufos would show up

825
00:28:24,389 --> 00:28:21,440
over our icbm

826
00:28:25,830 --> 00:28:24,399
silos in the 60s and 70s and even more

827
00:28:27,909 --> 00:28:25,840
recently now

828
00:28:30,389 --> 00:28:27,919
where when the ufo would hover over the

829
00:28:31,990 --> 00:28:30,399
silo either the power would go out

830
00:28:33,909 --> 00:28:32,000
or something would go wrong with the

831
00:28:35,909 --> 00:28:33,919
targeting of the icbm or something would

832
00:28:37,750 --> 00:28:35,919
go wrong with the entire warhead

833
00:28:40,470 --> 00:28:37,760
and sometimes when the ufo would move

834
00:28:42,230 --> 00:28:40,480
away whatever went wrong would

835
00:28:43,590 --> 00:28:42,240
be come back to life or whatever

836
00:28:46,310 --> 00:28:43,600
sometimes it wouldn't

837
00:28:48,630 --> 00:28:46,320
um i think that's really sending

838
00:28:50,710 --> 00:28:48,640
you know a very clear message that they

839
00:28:52,630 --> 00:28:50,720
um know what these things are and and

840
00:28:55,350 --> 00:28:52,640
that they have almost more control over

841
00:28:57,750 --> 00:28:55,360
them than we do and um very few people

842
00:28:59,830 --> 00:28:57,760
know about this uh you know in

843
00:29:02,149 --> 00:28:59,840
in the civilian population because uh

844
00:29:04,310 --> 00:29:02,159
the us military has done a great job at

845
00:29:06,470 --> 00:29:04,320
covering all this up yeah

846
00:29:08,549 --> 00:29:06,480
yeah and there's there's a lot of that

847
00:29:11,110 --> 00:29:08,559
there were of course you you came across

848
00:29:12,710 --> 00:29:11,120
a lot of articles and a lot of sightings

849
00:29:14,230 --> 00:29:12,720
or whatever that you could not put in

850
00:29:16,310 --> 00:29:14,240
the book you know because you just had

851
00:29:18,389 --> 00:29:16,320
ran out of space and time i'm sure but

852
00:29:19,669 --> 00:29:18,399
is there one that comes to mind that was

853
00:29:21,510 --> 00:29:19,679
pretty interesting that you just

854
00:29:23,750 --> 00:29:21,520
couldn't put in the book well i know

855
00:29:25,590 --> 00:29:23,760
this i know that i wish that the this

856
00:29:27,590 --> 00:29:25,600
isn't exactly answering the question but

857
00:29:31,350 --> 00:29:27,600
i wish that we were able to do a longer

858
00:29:33,750 --> 00:29:31,360
chapter on the ufos in korea

859
00:29:34,549 --> 00:29:33,760
there were so many ufo reports in korea

860
00:29:40,070 --> 00:29:34,559
in

861
00:29:42,230 --> 00:29:40,080
operations korea is about one-third the

862
00:29:44,630 --> 00:29:42,240
size of texas and all of a sudden you

863
00:29:47,269 --> 00:29:44,640
had hundreds of jet fighters flying over

864
00:29:48,950 --> 00:29:47,279
it hundreds of ships offshore

865
00:29:50,230 --> 00:29:48,960
thousands of troops on the ground on

866
00:29:52,310 --> 00:29:50,240
both sides

867
00:29:55,029 --> 00:29:52,320
and it's the first

868
00:29:56,870 --> 00:29:55,039
instance where not only do you have

869
00:29:58,389 --> 00:29:56,880
radars on ships and on the ground but

870
00:30:00,070 --> 00:29:58,399
you have radars in the airplanes

871
00:30:03,110 --> 00:30:00,080
themselves and that's the whole thing

872
00:30:04,870 --> 00:30:03,120
about ufos is seeing is one thing

873
00:30:06,870 --> 00:30:04,880
being picked up on radar is another

874
00:30:08,630 --> 00:30:06,880
right if someone sees something and then

875
00:30:10,070 --> 00:30:08,640
it's picked up on radar

876
00:30:12,149 --> 00:30:10,080
you got something going there yeah

877
00:30:13,590 --> 00:30:12,159
there's something there and um

878
00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:13,600
and it's just because you had all these

879
00:30:17,110 --> 00:30:16,000
radars flying around that um

880
00:30:19,510 --> 00:30:17,120
that that

881
00:30:21,750 --> 00:30:19,520
a lot of ufos were identified visually

882
00:30:23,190 --> 00:30:21,760
and on radar you could write a book well

883
00:30:25,269 --> 00:30:23,200
someone did write a book which dr

884
00:30:27,830 --> 00:30:25,279
richard haynes wrote a book oh yes um

885
00:30:29,510 --> 00:30:27,840
you know ufos in korea and um

886
00:30:32,549 --> 00:30:29,520
we kind of dipped into that for the best

887
00:30:35,110 --> 00:30:32,559
stories but um yeah if i there were many

888
00:30:37,190 --> 00:30:35,120
more stories about the korean war and

889
00:30:38,710 --> 00:30:37,200
ufos that we just didn't have the time

890
00:30:41,029 --> 00:30:38,720
the space to get into but very

891
00:30:42,149 --> 00:30:41,039
interesting kind of era of the ufo

892
00:30:44,389 --> 00:30:42,159
history

893
00:30:46,950 --> 00:30:44,399
yeah did you work with uh richard at all

894
00:30:49,350 --> 00:30:46,960
richard haynes at all on any any of this

895
00:30:53,190 --> 00:30:49,360
we um i talked to him twice on the phone

896
00:30:55,430 --> 00:30:53,200
he's an interesting guy yes he is he was

897
00:30:57,190 --> 00:30:55,440
really high up the ladder at nasa

898
00:31:00,310 --> 00:30:57,200
in the 60s he had a lot to do with

899
00:31:03,110 --> 00:31:00,320
designing the gemini space capsule

900
00:31:05,830 --> 00:31:03,120
and other things and then he became so

901
00:31:06,630 --> 00:31:05,840
involved in trying to find out what ufos

902
00:31:11,190 --> 00:31:06,640
uh

903
00:31:12,230 --> 00:31:11,200
his life you know

904
00:31:14,630 --> 00:31:12,240
um

905
00:31:15,990 --> 00:31:14,640
kind of a secretive guy nice guy

906
00:31:17,110 --> 00:31:16,000
talked to him on the phone twice as i

907
00:31:18,549 --> 00:31:17,120
said and

908
00:31:20,950 --> 00:31:18,559
he gave me a lot of information about

909
00:31:23,350 --> 00:31:20,960
what was happening in korea gave me a

910
00:31:24,470 --> 00:31:23,360
lot of information off the record

911
00:31:27,029 --> 00:31:24,480
um

912
00:31:29,430 --> 00:31:27,039
which which i wish i could impart to you

913
00:31:32,230 --> 00:31:29,440
now but i promise not to but some very

914
00:31:33,430 --> 00:31:32,240
scary uh instances he told me about that

915
00:31:34,389 --> 00:31:33,440
have happened

916
00:31:37,190 --> 00:31:34,399
uh

917
00:31:40,389 --> 00:31:37,200
in the post-9 11 world

918
00:31:42,789 --> 00:31:40,399
um and i asked him i said you know

919
00:31:44,950 --> 00:31:42,799
you're you're a learned man and i i

920
00:31:45,750 --> 00:31:44,960
think he's a very courageous guy because

921
00:31:47,590 --> 00:31:45,760
the

922
00:31:50,070 --> 00:31:47,600
overall problem with ufo research is

923
00:31:53,110 --> 00:31:50,080
that uh you're ridiculed if you're a

924
00:31:55,669 --> 00:31:53,120
scientist that's right um to say i want

925
00:31:57,110 --> 00:31:55,679
to study with the what they are and and

926
00:31:58,710 --> 00:31:57,120
not only are you ridiculed you're not

927
00:32:00,230 --> 00:31:58,720
going to get any funding and when you're

928
00:32:01,909 --> 00:32:00,240
a scientist that's right yeah your

929
00:32:03,590 --> 00:32:01,919
reputation and funding are the two main

930
00:32:05,669 --> 00:32:03,600
things to keep you going and no one

931
00:32:07,669 --> 00:32:05,679
wants to do it but he did you know he

932
00:32:09,990 --> 00:32:07,679
did and um

933
00:32:12,230 --> 00:32:10,000
you know my hat's off to him um he's one

934
00:32:14,710 --> 00:32:12,240
of the people out there who are really

935
00:32:17,029 --> 00:32:14,720
trying to find out what is going on he's

936
00:32:19,190 --> 00:32:17,039
writing a book now ufos in vietnam which

937
00:32:21,029 --> 00:32:19,200
we touch on a little bit in our book

938
00:32:23,669 --> 00:32:21,039
um but um

939
00:32:25,350 --> 00:32:23,679
uh you know he is very learned man and

940
00:32:27,509 --> 00:32:25,360
really knew his stuff and it was really

941
00:32:29,350 --> 00:32:27,519
um it was really a big thrill for me to

942
00:32:32,070 --> 00:32:29,360
be able to talk to him and interview him

943
00:32:34,470 --> 00:32:32,080
right right and i i made that point

944
00:32:36,950 --> 00:32:34,480
before in a past podcast that you know

945
00:32:39,190 --> 00:32:36,960
it really a lot of it is about funding i

946
00:32:41,590 --> 00:32:39,200
mean there is no funding and and i think

947
00:32:43,029 --> 00:32:41,600
science should really take a hard look

948
00:32:44,710 --> 00:32:43,039
at this because

949
00:32:46,149 --> 00:32:44,720
you know millions of people can't be

950
00:32:47,990 --> 00:32:46,159
wrong that they're seeing these things

951
00:32:49,990 --> 00:32:48,000
that's right i mean there's

952
00:32:51,590 --> 00:32:50,000
up to a thousand ufo sightings every day

953
00:32:53,750 --> 00:32:51,600
around the globe

954
00:32:55,590 --> 00:32:53,760
there was a survey done a few years ago

955
00:32:57,110 --> 00:32:55,600
that 40 million americans believe in

956
00:32:58,789 --> 00:32:57,120
ufos

957
00:33:00,549 --> 00:32:58,799
actually 40 million people have either

958
00:33:03,590 --> 00:33:00,559
sorry ufo i know someone who has seen a

959
00:33:05,509 --> 00:33:03,600
ufo 80 million people believe in ufos

960
00:33:07,990 --> 00:33:05,519
and the thing is if they can spend 10

961
00:33:10,070 --> 00:33:08,000
billion on this super collider

962
00:33:11,350 --> 00:33:10,080
right switzerland to basically see you

963
00:33:12,630 --> 00:33:11,360
know what was

964
00:33:14,470 --> 00:33:12,640
happening

965
00:33:15,909 --> 00:33:14,480
milliseconds after the big bang which

966
00:33:17,750 --> 00:33:15,919
you know i'm sure will lead to great

967
00:33:20,230 --> 00:33:17,760
scientific discoveries

968
00:33:22,630 --> 00:33:20,240
um it would seem that you would want to

969
00:33:24,549 --> 00:33:22,640
put as much money or at least some of

970
00:33:25,909 --> 00:33:24,559
that money into figuring out what ufos

971
00:33:26,950 --> 00:33:25,919
are because

972
00:33:28,230 --> 00:33:26,960
if you

973
00:33:29,269 --> 00:33:28,240
finally figure out what they are it's

974
00:33:30,710 --> 00:33:29,279
going to be

975
00:33:33,509 --> 00:33:30,720
one of the greatest

976
00:33:35,110 --> 00:33:33,519
discoveries of human history absolutely

977
00:33:37,509 --> 00:33:35,120
but we don't need to know about

978
00:33:39,269 --> 00:33:37,519
neutrinos all that much you know they

979
00:33:40,789 --> 00:33:39,279
might be if we figure out what ufos are

980
00:33:42,549 --> 00:33:40,799
maybe we won't have to you know that's

981
00:33:44,389 --> 00:33:42,559
right that stuff is but for some reason

982
00:33:46,470 --> 00:33:44,399
well it's not for some reason it's it's

983
00:33:49,269 --> 00:33:46,480
basically because what the us government

984
00:33:50,070 --> 00:33:49,279
and the cia did early in the 50s were

985
00:33:52,549 --> 00:33:50,080
they

986
00:33:55,029 --> 00:33:52,559
had a definite program to

987
00:33:56,149 --> 00:33:55,039
make it so that anyone who reported a

988
00:33:58,230 --> 00:33:56,159
ufo

989
00:34:00,470 --> 00:33:58,240
you know airline pilots military pilots

990
00:34:04,070 --> 00:34:00,480
or just normal citizens would basically

991
00:34:06,070 --> 00:34:04,080
be ridiculed right and um and that you

992
00:34:08,230 --> 00:34:06,080
know is something that's still going on

993
00:34:10,149 --> 00:34:08,240
today i mean let's face it um

994
00:34:11,909 --> 00:34:10,159
you know i'm going to say maybe one out

995
00:34:13,669 --> 00:34:11,919
of two people's ufo is probably going to

996
00:34:14,790 --> 00:34:13,679
keep quiet about it because if you make

997
00:34:15,909 --> 00:34:14,800
a big deal

998
00:34:18,069 --> 00:34:15,919
half the people out there are going to

999
00:34:19,829 --> 00:34:18,079
think you're nuts that's right and i've

1000
00:34:21,990 --> 00:34:19,839
run into that myself i don't know if you

1001
00:34:23,669 --> 00:34:22,000
have but i've run into that a few times

1002
00:34:24,869 --> 00:34:23,679
and that's just the way it is and one of

1003
00:34:27,669 --> 00:34:24,879
the things that

1004
00:34:29,349 --> 00:34:27,679
a skeptic person would mention or say or

1005
00:34:31,190 --> 00:34:29,359
has said to me before i have a friend

1006
00:34:31,990 --> 00:34:31,200
that's really a skeptic but i really

1007
00:34:34,790 --> 00:34:32,000
like

1008
00:34:35,589 --> 00:34:34,800
that because we debate a lot about it

1009
00:34:38,230 --> 00:34:35,599
but

1010
00:34:40,310 --> 00:34:38,240
he says to me well then if it's true

1011
00:34:42,389 --> 00:34:40,320
then how come they're not on radars so

1012
00:34:44,950 --> 00:34:42,399
they are on radars and he said well you

1013
00:34:46,869 --> 00:34:44,960
don't see that or hear that anywhere and

1014
00:34:49,109 --> 00:34:46,879
you know it's just because someone's not

1015
00:34:51,190 --> 00:34:49,119
looking there's plenty of evidence out

1016
00:34:52,230 --> 00:34:51,200
there that they've been on radar right

1017
00:34:54,069 --> 00:34:52,240
now

1018
00:34:57,190 --> 00:34:54,079
i mean i can i'll quickly tell the story

1019
00:35:01,349 --> 00:34:57,200
of the ghost rockets of 1946

1020
00:35:04,069 --> 00:35:01,359
where um in sweden um in 1946 in the

1021
00:35:05,670 --> 00:35:04,079
spring of 1946 people started seeing

1022
00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:05,680
these rockets

1023
00:35:09,030 --> 00:35:07,680
flying over sweden

1024
00:35:12,550 --> 00:35:09,040
and

1025
00:35:15,190 --> 00:35:12,560
them were spotted sometimes they were

1026
00:35:17,349 --> 00:35:15,200
flying along inflammation people saw

1027
00:35:19,589 --> 00:35:17,359
them taking turns and maneuvering so on

1028
00:35:21,190 --> 00:35:19,599
and um the swedish military got so

1029
00:35:24,230 --> 00:35:21,200
concerned about it that they actually

1030
00:35:25,349 --> 00:35:24,240
broke their neutrality law secretly

1031
00:35:27,910 --> 00:35:25,359
went to the british and asked the

1032
00:35:29,190 --> 00:35:27,920
british to send them some radar and so

1033
00:35:31,430 --> 00:35:29,200
the british sent them a bunch of yeah

1034
00:35:32,950 --> 00:35:31,440
defense rate assets and sure enough

1035
00:35:34,710 --> 00:35:32,960
these things start showing up in radar

1036
00:35:36,870 --> 00:35:34,720
which i was talking about earlier like

1037
00:35:38,470 --> 00:35:36,880
in the korean war if you see it it's one

1038
00:35:39,990 --> 00:35:38,480
thing if it shows up in radar it's

1039
00:35:42,630 --> 00:35:40,000
another if you see it and it shows up

1040
00:35:44,470 --> 00:35:42,640
radar something is there and they got

1041
00:35:47,349 --> 00:35:44,480
just as soon as they installed this

1042
00:35:49,750 --> 00:35:47,359
british radar they they got 400 hits

1043
00:35:51,270 --> 00:35:49,760
right away of these strange things

1044
00:35:53,190 --> 00:35:51,280
um no one ever figured out what they

1045
00:35:56,069 --> 00:35:53,200
were they thought at first it was the

1046
00:35:59,510 --> 00:35:56,079
russians shooting off old german v1 buzz

1047
00:36:02,710 --> 00:35:59,520
bombs but that turned out not to be true

1048
00:36:04,069 --> 00:36:02,720
and at one point towards the end of this

1049
00:36:08,150 --> 00:36:04,079
um

1050
00:36:10,390 --> 00:36:08,160
these ghost rockets a swedish pilot

1051
00:36:13,030 --> 00:36:10,400
actually caught up to one and flew

1052
00:36:14,630 --> 00:36:13,040
alongside her for a while watched it

1053
00:36:16,550 --> 00:36:14,640
maneuver and had a very high it looked

1054
00:36:18,630 --> 00:36:16,560
like it was had high technology in the

1055
00:36:20,150 --> 00:36:18,640
way it was maneuvering and so on

1056
00:36:21,990 --> 00:36:20,160
his description

1057
00:36:24,870 --> 00:36:22,000
at the time was secret

1058
00:36:26,230 --> 00:36:24,880
but later on in the 80s two ufo

1059
00:36:28,310 --> 00:36:26,240
researchers interviewed one of the

1060
00:36:30,470 --> 00:36:28,320
swedish defense ministers

1061
00:36:31,990 --> 00:36:30,480
and this guy gave this pilot's

1062
00:36:33,510 --> 00:36:32,000
description of what this thing was and

1063
00:36:34,470 --> 00:36:33,520
if you read the description that this

1064
00:36:36,790 --> 00:36:34,480
swedish

1065
00:36:38,790 --> 00:36:36,800
defense minister gave of what was seen

1066
00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:38,800
in 1946 and you read the description of

1067
00:36:45,190 --> 00:36:41,680
a modern day cruise missile it's exact

1068
00:36:47,190 --> 00:36:45,200
really and he even he said what they saw

1069
00:36:48,870 --> 00:36:47,200
that pilot side of the day was a cruise

1070
00:36:51,190 --> 00:36:48,880
missile but who had cruise missile

1071
00:36:52,870 --> 00:36:51,200
technology in 1946

1072
00:36:54,470 --> 00:36:52,880
that's one of the other theme to the

1073
00:36:56,790 --> 00:36:54,480
book is that in several

1074
00:36:59,030 --> 00:36:56,800
instances we came upon where people seem

1075
00:37:00,710 --> 00:36:59,040
to see technology that's just a little

1076
00:37:03,510 --> 00:37:00,720
bit ahead of its time the scare ships

1077
00:37:07,589 --> 00:37:03,520
isn't is a instance of that the gross

1078
00:37:09,990 --> 00:37:07,599
rockets is an instance of that um

1079
00:37:11,430 --> 00:37:10,000
the ghost flyers of 1933 over the same

1080
00:37:13,430 --> 00:37:11,440
part of sweden is an instance of that

1081
00:37:16,710 --> 00:37:13,440
for some reason and it's almost like a

1082
00:37:18,790 --> 00:37:16,720
branch of ufos people see something that

1083
00:37:21,270 --> 00:37:18,800
just shouldn't be there in that time

1084
00:37:22,710 --> 00:37:21,280
frame maybe 10 15 years later it's not

1085
00:37:24,470 --> 00:37:22,720
such a big deal

1086
00:37:25,750 --> 00:37:24,480
but airships for instance you know

1087
00:37:27,349 --> 00:37:25,760
zeppelins before the zeppelins were

1088
00:37:28,710 --> 00:37:27,359
invented and

1089
00:37:30,870 --> 00:37:28,720
airplanes with eight engines before

1090
00:37:33,190 --> 00:37:30,880
there were airplanes with eight engines

1091
00:37:35,430 --> 00:37:33,200
and a cruise missile in 1946 so once

1092
00:37:38,790 --> 00:37:35,440
again what's it mean who knows yeah it's

1093
00:37:40,870 --> 00:37:38,800
almost like um out of time you know just

1094
00:37:44,310 --> 00:37:40,880
step stepped back in time a little bit

1095
00:37:46,230 --> 00:37:44,320
the one the one part um that i disagree

1096
00:37:47,990 --> 00:37:46,240
in your book on

1097
00:37:49,510 --> 00:37:48,000
and you probably you may have had

1098
00:37:52,470 --> 00:37:49,520
someone say something to you before

1099
00:37:54,390 --> 00:37:52,480
about this is your thoughts on roswell

1100
00:37:56,550 --> 00:37:54,400
um you know i

1101
00:37:58,550 --> 00:37:56,560
i understand your point i i know there's

1102
00:37:59,829 --> 00:37:58,560
some wackos out there that kind of

1103
00:38:02,390 --> 00:37:59,839
almost turned everything into

1104
00:38:04,950 --> 00:38:02,400
disinformation i know it was buried for

1105
00:38:07,109 --> 00:38:04,960
30 years before people came forward but

1106
00:38:08,950 --> 00:38:07,119
there's uh there's a lot of things that

1107
00:38:11,190 --> 00:38:08,960
to me

1108
00:38:12,390 --> 00:38:11,200
when the government says you know it was

1109
00:38:14,230 --> 00:38:12,400
the mogul

1110
00:38:15,030 --> 00:38:14,240
and uh

1111
00:38:19,270 --> 00:38:15,040
the

1112
00:38:21,190 --> 00:38:19,280
you know and which didn't come out to

1113
00:38:23,030 --> 00:38:21,200
five years later the thing there's a

1114
00:38:24,390 --> 00:38:23,040
couple of things that i want to point

1115
00:38:26,390 --> 00:38:24,400
out to you that makes me think it was

1116
00:38:28,790 --> 00:38:26,400
really something one of them is how

1117
00:38:32,310 --> 00:38:28,800
could the air force say they captured a

1118
00:38:34,230 --> 00:38:32,320
disc in the first place and secondly why

1119
00:38:35,030 --> 00:38:34,240
would people come forth on their death

1120
00:38:36,630 --> 00:38:35,040
bed

1121
00:38:38,630 --> 00:38:36,640
there's two instances where people are

1122
00:38:40,870 --> 00:38:38,640
on their death bed and they decided they

1123
00:38:41,990 --> 00:38:40,880
didn't want to die without saying what

1124
00:38:43,109 --> 00:38:42,000
they saw

1125
00:38:45,349 --> 00:38:43,119
so anyway i just want to hear your

1126
00:38:47,190 --> 00:38:45,359
points on that well

1127
00:38:50,310 --> 00:38:47,200
i just want to say that that for a long

1128
00:38:53,270 --> 00:38:50,320
time i wanted to believe in roswell

1129
00:38:56,230 --> 00:38:53,280
um i was so into roswell in the late 80s

1130
00:38:58,230 --> 00:38:56,240
and 90s that at one point some ufo

1131
00:39:00,230 --> 00:38:58,240
organization was going to form an

1132
00:39:03,190 --> 00:39:00,240
archaeological team go down to the

1133
00:39:05,430 --> 00:39:03,200
debris field and dig it up just

1134
00:39:08,390 --> 00:39:05,440
in scientifically in a scientific way

1135
00:39:10,310 --> 00:39:08,400
like an archaeological dig and um

1136
00:39:13,270 --> 00:39:10,320
i was so caught up in that idea i

1137
00:39:14,390 --> 00:39:13,280
volunteered to join the team wow

1138
00:39:15,910 --> 00:39:14,400
it never went

1139
00:39:17,430 --> 00:39:15,920
they never went forward with it but i

1140
00:39:20,470 --> 00:39:17,440
was ready to go

1141
00:39:22,150 --> 00:39:20,480
but i think as you say it was kind of

1142
00:39:24,550 --> 00:39:22,160
buried for all those years i read lots

1143
00:39:26,790 --> 00:39:24,560
of ufo books as a kid never saw anything

1144
00:39:28,150 --> 00:39:26,800
about roswell and it was uh when stan

1145
00:39:29,910 --> 00:39:28,160
friedman and a couple other people kind

1146
00:39:32,150 --> 00:39:29,920
of brought it back to the fall

1147
00:39:34,150 --> 00:39:32,160
but for the basics of so just to answer

1148
00:39:35,990 --> 00:39:34,160
your question you know why would the air

1149
00:39:36,950 --> 00:39:36,000
force say that they had a crashed disc

1150
00:39:39,510 --> 00:39:36,960
well

1151
00:39:40,870 --> 00:39:39,520
this um the spy balloon program that was

1152
00:39:43,829 --> 00:39:40,880
going on

1153
00:39:45,510 --> 00:39:43,839
uh nearby um which were launching these

1154
00:39:47,910 --> 00:39:45,520
huge balloons that would drift over the

1155
00:39:49,990 --> 00:39:47,920
soviet union they had these long kites

1156
00:39:51,430 --> 00:39:50,000
on them kite tails on them with acoustic

1157
00:39:53,589 --> 00:39:51,440
devices and they were trying to find out

1158
00:39:56,230 --> 00:39:53,599
whether the russians had an atomic vomit

1159
00:39:57,670 --> 00:39:56,240
by picking up acoustic evidence they

1160
00:39:59,589 --> 00:39:57,680
didn't want the russians to know that we

1161
00:40:01,109 --> 00:39:59,599
were doing that because at the time even

1162
00:40:03,190 --> 00:40:01,119
then technically the russians were still

1163
00:40:06,950 --> 00:40:03,200
our allies but

1164
00:40:08,630 --> 00:40:06,960
i think what happened was when the

1165
00:40:11,109 --> 00:40:08,640
air force saw

1166
00:40:13,030 --> 00:40:11,119
the debris and they

1167
00:40:15,030 --> 00:40:13,040
because this was such a secret program

1168
00:40:17,349 --> 00:40:15,040
they couldn't say we found the debris of

1169
00:40:18,150 --> 00:40:17,359
a secret spy balloon program so they

1170
00:40:20,150 --> 00:40:18,160
said

1171
00:40:22,230 --> 00:40:20,160
we found a crash disk

1172
00:40:24,310 --> 00:40:22,240
and that was like they were covering

1173
00:40:25,750 --> 00:40:24,320
something up but it wasn't covering up

1174
00:40:27,030 --> 00:40:25,760
the fact that the ufo had crashed they

1175
00:40:28,710 --> 00:40:27,040
were trying to cover up that a spy

1176
00:40:31,510 --> 00:40:28,720
balloon had crashed

1177
00:40:33,430 --> 00:40:31,520
and they used the ufo angle as the

1178
00:40:36,230 --> 00:40:33,440
cover-up point

1179
00:40:37,670 --> 00:40:36,240
next to that and and

1180
00:40:39,589 --> 00:40:37,680
this all kind of turned for me when i

1181
00:40:41,109 --> 00:40:39,599
was watching tv one night at a ufo show

1182
00:40:42,310 --> 00:40:41,119
which i you know watched hundreds of

1183
00:40:43,430 --> 00:40:42,320
them during this time i was doing the

1184
00:40:44,390 --> 00:40:43,440
research

1185
00:40:45,750 --> 00:40:44,400
and

1186
00:40:47,270 --> 00:40:45,760
they just showed

1187
00:40:49,990 --> 00:40:47,280
the debris

1188
00:40:51,430 --> 00:40:50,000
from the famous u.s air force photograph

1189
00:40:54,069 --> 00:40:51,440
and then they showed debris that was

1190
00:40:56,390 --> 00:40:54,079
left over from one of these spy balloons

1191
00:40:58,150 --> 00:40:56,400
and somehow photoshopping whatever they

1192
00:41:00,069 --> 00:40:58,160
they took those pictures from the air

1193
00:41:02,069 --> 00:41:00,079
force photo and they just line them up

1194
00:41:04,470 --> 00:41:02,079
perfectly with the debris of the

1195
00:41:06,550 --> 00:41:04,480
of a really crashed spy balloon and and

1196
00:41:09,030 --> 00:41:06,560
everything matched perfectly

1197
00:41:11,990 --> 00:41:09,040
this matched perfectly so i said wow it

1198
00:41:13,190 --> 00:41:12,000
was one of those balloons so

1199
00:41:15,990 --> 00:41:13,200
in my mind that's what i thought and

1200
00:41:17,750 --> 00:41:16,000
then as you said you you add into that

1201
00:41:19,589 --> 00:41:17,760
all these fantastic

1202
00:41:21,270 --> 00:41:19,599
stories that have come out from their

1203
00:41:22,390 --> 00:41:21,280
sense i mean i think the latest books

1204
00:41:24,710 --> 00:41:22,400
say that

1205
00:41:26,710 --> 00:41:24,720
you know more than 15 ufos have crashed

1206
00:41:28,550 --> 00:41:26,720
in the roswell area and that there is

1207
00:41:30,150 --> 00:41:28,560
you know dozens of alien bodies and that

1208
00:41:31,430 --> 00:41:30,160
the military was

1209
00:41:32,950 --> 00:41:31,440
breaking into people's homes and

1210
00:41:35,270 --> 00:41:32,960
shooting people to shut them up and i

1211
00:41:36,950 --> 00:41:35,280
mean there's just it sounds crazy

1212
00:41:38,710 --> 00:41:36,960
it just sounds crazy and and i don't

1213
00:41:40,870 --> 00:41:38,720
think you could get away with something

1214
00:41:42,550 --> 00:41:40,880
like that in this country

1215
00:41:44,390 --> 00:41:42,560
someone would talk

1216
00:41:48,230 --> 00:41:44,400
and why are all these ufos crashing in

1217
00:41:49,430 --> 00:41:48,240
roswell um so i just think i i always

1218
00:41:51,910 --> 00:41:49,440
use this phrase i just think there's too

1219
00:41:53,750 --> 00:41:51,920
many moving parts to this story i i

1220
00:41:55,510 --> 00:41:53,760
really believe that nothing happened at

1221
00:41:58,230 --> 00:41:55,520
broswell i'm not saying that they don't

1222
00:42:00,390 --> 00:41:58,240
have a crash ufo from some other place

1223
00:42:02,069 --> 00:42:00,400
that they have hidden somewhere but i

1224
00:42:04,950 --> 00:42:02,079
just don't think it happened at roswell

1225
00:42:06,309 --> 00:42:04,960
i i'd be i'm i'm open to have my mind

1226
00:42:09,190 --> 00:42:06,319
changed okay i would like someone to

1227
00:42:10,470 --> 00:42:09,200
convince me that i'm wrong but um

1228
00:42:11,829 --> 00:42:10,480
at this point i really don't think

1229
00:42:13,190 --> 00:42:11,839
anything happened there as far as with

1230
00:42:14,710 --> 00:42:13,200
the deathbed

1231
00:42:16,230 --> 00:42:14,720
things i don't know i don't know about

1232
00:42:18,069 --> 00:42:16,240
that i know that death bed confessions

1233
00:42:20,069 --> 00:42:18,079
are admissible in court so that's pretty

1234
00:42:21,910 --> 00:42:20,079
hard evidence but why someone would say

1235
00:42:23,349 --> 00:42:21,920
that on their death threat i just don't

1236
00:42:25,510 --> 00:42:23,359
know maybe it's just something that they

1237
00:42:27,589 --> 00:42:25,520
really truly believed and they were

1238
00:42:28,950 --> 00:42:27,599
mistaken about it but

1239
00:42:30,870 --> 00:42:28,960
i've offered to

1240
00:42:33,109 --> 00:42:30,880
go down to roswell with anyone who wants

1241
00:42:35,109 --> 00:42:33,119
to convince me otherwise so if you want

1242
00:42:38,150 --> 00:42:35,119
to go let's go

1243
00:42:41,270 --> 00:42:38,160
all right well fair enough now let's uh

1244
00:42:43,430 --> 00:42:41,280
let's talk about um the latest war going

1245
00:42:44,630 --> 00:42:43,440
on is there anything that you're aware

1246
00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:44,640
of

1247
00:42:49,670 --> 00:42:46,640
as far as sightings go in iraq and

1248
00:42:52,069 --> 00:42:49,680
afghanistan um yes there was a

1249
00:42:54,150 --> 00:42:52,079
a number of sightings in afghanistan and

1250
00:42:55,109 --> 00:42:54,160
during the height of the war uh the book

1251
00:42:58,069 --> 00:42:55,119
uh

1252
00:42:59,750 --> 00:42:58,079
ends at the end of the 20th century ends

1253
00:43:03,270 --> 00:42:59,760
in a period right after the first gulf

1254
00:43:05,349 --> 00:43:03,280
war but we did come upon evidence of

1255
00:43:08,230 --> 00:43:05,359
lots of instances of

1256
00:43:10,069 --> 00:43:08,240
troops in the field at night seeing ufos

1257
00:43:11,990 --> 00:43:10,079
through their night vision goggles which

1258
00:43:14,870 --> 00:43:12,000
is interesting now this is a this is a

1259
00:43:17,190 --> 00:43:14,880
wall where um like fission goggles are

1260
00:43:19,990 --> 00:43:17,200
everywhere right yeah okay and it seems

1261
00:43:21,270 --> 00:43:20,000
like for for whatever reasons ufos are

1262
00:43:23,349 --> 00:43:21,280
are um

1263
00:43:26,470 --> 00:43:23,359
spotted more easily through night vision

1264
00:43:28,309 --> 00:43:26,480
goggles a lot of that in iraq um

1265
00:43:29,349 --> 00:43:28,319
not so much over afghanistan that we've

1266
00:43:31,589 --> 00:43:29,359
heard about

1267
00:43:33,750 --> 00:43:31,599
yet but see the thing is is that because

1268
00:43:35,829 --> 00:43:33,760
of the way the military treats people

1269
00:43:37,750 --> 00:43:35,839
who see ufos it's going to take a while

1270
00:43:38,630 --> 00:43:37,760
for these people who are on duty now

1271
00:43:41,589 --> 00:43:38,640
yeah

1272
00:43:43,910 --> 00:43:41,599
to get out and then for the uh

1273
00:43:46,550 --> 00:43:43,920
news to kind of trickle out in fact i

1274
00:43:48,390 --> 00:43:46,560
i'll just say that my pet project now is

1275
00:43:50,870 --> 00:43:48,400
what i think we should do

1276
00:43:52,550 --> 00:43:50,880
is i think that we should

1277
00:43:54,870 --> 00:43:52,560
either petition the government or

1278
00:43:56,870 --> 00:43:54,880
somehow talk to the force the military

1279
00:43:59,190 --> 00:43:56,880
to give blanket amnesty

1280
00:44:01,589 --> 00:43:59,200
right to any service person

1281
00:44:04,870 --> 00:44:01,599
who sorry ufo during their service

1282
00:44:06,550 --> 00:44:04,880
career and was told not to talk about it

1283
00:44:09,030 --> 00:44:06,560
tell those people nothing is going to

1284
00:44:11,190 --> 00:44:09,040
happen to you come forth tell everyone

1285
00:44:13,030 --> 00:44:11,200
what you saw and just think of the um

1286
00:44:14,790 --> 00:44:13,040
tidal wave of information we would get

1287
00:44:16,710 --> 00:44:14,800
absolutely people so that would be great

1288
00:44:18,550 --> 00:44:16,720
if that people should do

1289
00:44:20,309 --> 00:44:18,560
like the ufo amnesty project or

1290
00:44:22,550 --> 00:44:20,319
something like that something like that

1291
00:44:24,470 --> 00:44:22,560
steve bassett or someone get behind and

1292
00:44:26,390 --> 00:44:24,480
force the military into

1293
00:44:27,430 --> 00:44:26,400
just giving amnesty to these people and

1294
00:44:29,829 --> 00:44:27,440
let's see

1295
00:44:31,510 --> 00:44:29,839
what they have to say let's not hear

1296
00:44:33,430 --> 00:44:31,520
about their stories and then

1297
00:44:35,109 --> 00:44:33,440
the other side of it is if the military

1298
00:44:36,470 --> 00:44:35,119
refused to do it then we know that

1299
00:44:38,390 --> 00:44:36,480
they're hiding something so it's a

1300
00:44:40,069 --> 00:44:38,400
win-win situation for us so i hope

1301
00:44:42,870 --> 00:44:40,079
someday that that happens yeah i think

1302
00:44:45,910 --> 00:44:42,880
that's a really good point now where can

1303
00:44:49,030 --> 00:44:45,920
someone find your book ufos in wartime

1304
00:44:51,349 --> 00:44:49,040
it's on amazon and actually before i

1305
00:44:53,190 --> 00:44:51,359
finish this question just to let the

1306
00:44:54,870 --> 00:44:53,200
listener know that i'll have this up on

1307
00:44:57,750 --> 00:44:54,880
your podcast

1308
00:45:00,069 --> 00:44:57,760
website

1309
00:45:02,150 --> 00:45:00,079
as far as the click and buy goes but is

1310
00:45:04,309 --> 00:45:02,160
it in bookstores yes it's published by

1311
00:45:05,990 --> 00:45:04,319
penguin books the berkeley books imprint

1312
00:45:07,910 --> 00:45:06,000
so penguin's the largest publisher in

1313
00:45:10,630 --> 00:45:07,920
the world so they're at um every

1314
00:45:12,390 --> 00:45:10,640
bookstore in the us and canada

1315
00:45:13,430 --> 00:45:12,400
and my publisher always reminds me to

1316
00:45:15,670 --> 00:45:13,440
say please

1317
00:45:17,030 --> 00:45:15,680
patronize your local bookstore but if

1318
00:45:19,990 --> 00:45:17,040
you can't

1319
00:45:21,550 --> 00:45:20,000
just go to amazon.com and it's very easy

1320
00:45:23,670 --> 00:45:21,560
to order it there

1321
00:45:25,030 --> 00:45:23,680
mcmaloney.com is my website there's a

1322
00:45:26,470 --> 00:45:25,040
lot of information there how we put the

1323
00:45:28,230 --> 00:45:26,480
book together and other books that we've

1324
00:45:29,510 --> 00:45:28,240
done so um

1325
00:45:32,069 --> 00:45:29,520
actually the best way to do it probably

1326
00:45:33,750 --> 00:45:32,079
is to go to amazon.com yeah and one last

1327
00:45:36,870 --> 00:45:33,760
question do you ever going to write

1328
00:45:38,230 --> 00:45:36,880
anything else about ufos do you think um

1329
00:45:40,950 --> 00:45:38,240
if you would ask me that two weeks ago i

1330
00:45:42,710 --> 00:45:40,960
probably said no but um in the two weeks

1331
00:45:44,870 --> 00:45:42,720
that you know they have offered me a

1332
00:45:46,150 --> 00:45:44,880
contract to do a follow-up book so we

1333
00:45:48,710 --> 00:45:46,160
are going to do a follow-up book

1334
00:45:50,950 --> 00:45:48,720
excellent okay well this has been great

1335
00:45:53,430 --> 00:45:50,960
so this is martin willis with mac